The Blood (81 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/8/2003 12:59 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 21)  
 
  649.1  
 
A father and his young son were viewing a parade in London, England. Because of the chilling wind, they stepped inside a small store and watched through the window. In the course of time a regiment of British troops marched by, and the man exclaimed, "My, aren't those Redcoats pretty!" But the little boy replied, "They aren't red, they are white. If you don't believe me, just squat down here and look." Just to prove the little fellow was wrong, his Daddy got down on his knees and looked out the window. To his amazement the coats were not red; they looked white.

What had happened was this. There was a red band of glass around the storefront window, and at the height of that the boy was looking out he was viewing the parade through a red band of glass. When you look at a red object through a red piece of glass, the red object loses it red color to your eyes. It appears white.

The same thing is true in salvation. When God looks at you through the red blood of Jesus your scarlet sins appear white. This is blood atonement.

Author Known to God

         

 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/8/2003 8:53 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (2 of 21)  
 
  649.2 in reply to 649.1  
 
Dear Falcon, 
No offense but the story is quite inaccurate. God does not put on some colored pair of glasses to change the way we LOOK to Him, He actually infuses Holiness into us through the Being which is Christ. God places His own Spirit, in the form of Christ, into our being making us NEW. We have been literally begotten of God, offsprings of His own Being, we are literally His children as such. 

I make this distinction because it is not proper to think God would arbitrarily CALL that which is evil good. To do so would make God unjust. God makes us Holy, then we are. 

I am not "under the blood", such terminology is unbiblical. Rather the "LIFE", that which is the Being of Christ is now part and parcel of my own Being. The Blood, the "Life" that was in the blood, the very Being of Christ flows within my Being. We do not smear ourselves over with His blood and body, we eat and drink His blood and body. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/8/2003 9:08 am  
To:  Aunt Bee (bbtoberaz)    (3 of 21)  
 
  649.3 in reply to 649.2  
 
Hi,

 

Nice posting!

 

I think that you both are right.

 

Under is used Biblically as a Position a Location.

 

For instance the Bible says we are under sin, under the law, or under grace.

 

The Bible does not quote the term under the blood but Positionally we are under Jesus and covered by His blood as only those covered by the blood Covenant of Jesus then receive the Holy Spirit and as you so well said become Spiritually alive in Christ Jesus.

 

God Bless you,
David A. Brown



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/8/2003 9:11 am  
To:  brent (brent696)   (4 of 21)  
 
  649.4 in reply to 649.3  
 
ooops..

The above post is to Brent.

Sorry for the mixup.

Again good posting all around!

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/8/2003 2:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 21)  
 
  649.5 in reply to 649.4  
 
Dear David, 
Often when talking to Christians upon the subject of "Born of the Spirit" I find their definition runs to some kind of legal transaction. As if it is a new designation alone without any true substance of Being behind it. Yet everything about our salvation stems from this unification with God's Spirit (Being). Forgiveness, justification, sanctification, all are due to this indwelling Being of God within us. It is what changes a created creature into a child (offspring) of God. 

There is no salvation for anyone who does not possess God's Being in such a way for the reason why we inherit "Eternal LIFE" is because "Eternal Being" has been infused within us. Only God and His Being are Eternal, He does not share His glory with another, not even the idea of immortal souls. God Himself IS Eternity. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/8/2003 5:09 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (6 of 21)  
 
  649.6 in reply to 649.2  
 
Do you know what an analogy is?  That what this posting was about....an analogy.  

 

         

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/8/2003 5:45 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (7 of 21)  
 
  649.7 in reply to 649.5  
 
Hi Brent,

That is an Excellent definiton on of the best that I have heard.

Now why do you post a "zen proverb" is there Eternal Life in Zen Proverbs.

Just wondering :o)

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/8/2003 10:48 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    (8 of 21)  
 
  649.8 in reply to 649.6  
 
Dear MF, 
>>>>>>>Do you know what an analogy is? That what this posting was about....an analogy.<<<<<<<< 

Yes, and analogies express certain truths which are unseen, certain Spiritual realities as it were. An analogy is basically a collection of relationships, like a model of dynamics. A good analogy will express a good likeness of exactly what the Spiritual realities are. The analogy in question expresses probably one or two points strongly such as God's love, but in full it can present sometimes poor and inaccurate portrayals of other aspects of the Spiritual realities. Just as God's love cannot be removed from His judgment, 

A person though who thinks God "has an opinion" of them can never be sure of their salvation. 

But a person who understands he has become part and parcel with God, that he is truly born again but from incorruptable Being, incorruptable seed, such a person can find abiding rest. 

The logic of the first leads to performance and reliance upon ones own Being. The reality of the second places full reliance upon God's own personal Being, and releases us into rest and comfort. 

I understand all this and analogies and more but what confuses me is that you seem to be saying that because it is an analogy, its OK for it to be an inaccurate reflection. I would tend to think that chosing an analogy I would want the best reflection as possible to accurately portray all the dynamics involved. 

Of course though when I spoke of its defeciencies I offered a more complete picture. I tend to find your post an exercise in belittlement by an insenuation of ignorance. Of course I know what an analogy is, I also know what a good one is. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/8/2003 11:01 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (9 of 21)  
 
  649.9 in reply to 649.7  
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>>That is an Excellent definiton on of the best that I have heard.<<<<<<<< 

Thanks 

>>>>>>>> Now why do you post a "zen proverb" is there Eternal Life in Zen Proverbs. 

Just wondering :o) <<<<<<<<< 

There is no eternal life in the bible and its proverbs either, why would I think to find it in a Zen proverb? Eternal Life comes from Eternal Being, of which only One seed has been injected into the whole of Creation. 

I post it because it is true. So what do you think, can there be strength in weakness? 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/9/2003 8:12 am  
To:  brent (brent696)   (10 of 21)  
 
  649.10 in reply to 649.9  
 
The Eternal life of the Proverbs and of All the Bible is that it Points to and Reveals Jesus to us.

 

Doesnt Zen point to Buddha it certainly does not point to God.

 

Your quote can be seen as pointing people away from the very source of life that you know they need and of course it adds confusion which is not of God.

 

God Bless you,
David A. Brown

 



David A. Brown
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/9/2003 9:27 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 21)  
 
  649.11 in reply to 649.10  
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>The Eternal life of the Proverbs and of All the Bible is that it Points to and Reveals Jesus to us. 

Doesnt Zen point to Buddha it certainly does not point to God. 

Your quote can be seen as pointing people away from the very source of life that you know they need and of course it adds confusion which is not of God. <<<<<<<<<< 

You would be hard pressed to say the proverbs in the bible point to Christ. One might say though they point to Christianity as Christianity used the bible. If you understood Buddha (not necessarily Buddhism) then you would know nothing points to Buddha. Buddha did not consider himself a god or a savior. He taught selflessness, he taught servanthood, same as Christ. 

The Spirit is not offended by this proverb, only religious pride is. Christianity is not what saves a man but the Spirit. Religious pride will judge, "us and them", designating purely by religious context. The Spirit will ask "is this true", or "is it an abiding reality in the eternal realm". For example say someone teaches kindness, granted kindness does not save a soul but kindness stems from the eternal Being, it is an attribute of God's own nature. The practice of kindness agrees with God from any human being, whether Christian or not. 

""""""" RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."""""""" 

The problem you will probably have with me is that I do not point to Christianity, I point to Christ and the Spirit. If Christianity reflects the Spirit, great, if not it is to be trashed. Christianity saved no one and many will find that out on the day of judgment. 

But what of man allows him salvation (rh)? For there is a quality which God does respond to. In fact it follows right on the hills John 3:16. John states it as; 

"""""""19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.""""""""" 

The "light" is not Christianity, it is Truth. The scriptures teach us to worship God in Spirit and in Truth, not in Christianity. In the Spirit and in Truth there is no confusion, the confusion comes when the prideful mind rejects truth simply by its religious or non religious designation. Those who love truth though recognize it wherever they find it, in any dress. Like seeing the woman you love on the street dressed in rags and begging, you would still recognize and love her when she spoke. One might ask then did Buddha teach transparency. If so then when given the revelation of Christ (Which would have happened when Christ preached to the righteous dead) would he then reject what is a Spiritual Truth. 

Besides you yourself have misused scripture, 

"""""Your quote can be seen as pointing people away from the very source of life that you know they need and of course it adds confusion which is not of God.""""""" 

The context of this verse is about manners in the congregation. Lets say you have a bunch of Pharisees, all following the Law and going to the Temple, then along comes Christ picking grain on the Sabbath, healing on the Sabbath. Now are the people confused, Christ acting one way and the religious establishment acting another. (Now I will use the same shame tactic you did on me) """Are you going to slay Christ because He seems to be confusioning, drawing people away from Judaism and thus God?""" 

Christ said "do unto other as you would have them do unto you" 

Buddha said "what you would not done unto you, do not to others" 

So is Buddha a Godless heathen? Or do you think maybe he heard and knew something of the Spirit? Is he a rejector of Christ, fact is he lived 500 years before Christ and besides, Christ was given through the Jews, not the Indians. The Spirit of God is not confined to Christianity anymore than to Judaism, the Spirit has moved to influence man, all men from the beginning. It did not suddenly spring into existence with a voice at the birth of Christ or even Judaism. 

The Jews were set aside to be an example to the world, certainly not because they are a specail and more able race. Yet some thought that merely being a Jew made them more righteous, they were essentially racially proud and thus missed out. Ones Jewish heritage could not save them, neither will a Christian heritage. Only the Spirit saves. 

This proverb is nothing more than the disciples picking grain on the Sabbath. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/9/2003 9:48 am  
To:  brent (brent696)   (12 of 21)  
 
  649.12 in reply to 649.11  
 
A Christian is what a Spiritually alive person is called.

 

Only Christ can give the Spirit as only Christ is the living one Im sure we agree on this.

 

Jesus said of Himself that He is the Truth the Life and the Way.

 

To be Spiritually Alive is to be a Christian everything else is spiritually dead.

 

Buddha as humble as he might or might not have been is dead, and so are Buddhas followers, because he and they have rejected the truth of Christ Jesus!

 

Dont make the same mistakes of others, only one God in Christ Jesus Gives Spirit Life.

 

I meant my compliment to you and it is up to you whether or not you want to compliment God and follow His teachings.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/9/2003 9:54 am  
To:  brent (brent696)   (13 of 21)  
 
  649.13 in reply to 649.11  
 
Proverbs 18:24 .. and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

 

That is one of the many, many places that Proverbs and the entire Bible speak of Jesus the Christ.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/9/2003 3:27 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 21)  
 
  649.14 in reply to 649.12  
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>A Christian is what a Spiritually alive person is called. 
Only Christ can give the Spirit as only Christ is the living one Im sure we agree on this.<<<<<<<<< 

Agreed, perhaps we can say all those born of the Spirit are Christians, but not all those who call themselves Christians are born of the Spirit. 

>>>>>>Buddha as humble as he might or might not have been is dead, and so are Buddhas followers, because he and they have rejected the truth of Christ Jesus!<<<<<<<< 

Are we going to deal with realities or are we going to hype Christianity? First of all Buddha never rejected Christ, nor do you know he would have. Further, a humble person is the exact person who is accepting of Christ. 

Second all the followers of Christ are dead also. At least as far as the physical. But then neither Buddha nor his followers are truly dead are they? They are souls as are we, and their physical death does not extract them from existing. The second death, that fire which burns up both Hades and even the elements of the Creation is where all must face true death. 

Your judgments are made upon religious designations and do not even reflect the truths and realities inherent within Christianity. You seem to be judging by human standards and not Godly ones. I'm just being factual with you, not meaning to be specifically condemning. 

>>>>>>>I meant my compliment to you and it is up to you whether or not you want to compliment God and follow His teachings.<<<<<<< 

Thank you and the fact you recognize those realities of the Spirit is a good compliment to you, but I must act according to the wisdom and knowledge the Lord has shown me. I know it is uncomfortable for many Christians and I wish it were not so. But for me to truly glorify God is to represent Him properly, His nature and Being and His plan for salvation, and so I represent Him, and not always Christianity. I am not against Christianity as an organization of creeds, it simply suffers from the same corruption as any system of followers for the same inherent sinful nature that is in all of us tend to corrupt our understanding. The body of Christ I identify with is a true living Spiritual body, not an organic collection of doctrinal adherents. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  brent (brent696)   7/9/2003 3:36 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (15 of 21)  
 
  649.15 in reply to 649.13  
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>Proverbs 18:24 .. and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. 

That is one of the many, many places that Proverbs and the entire Bible speak of Jesus the Christ.<<<<<<<< 

"""""" PR 18:24 A man of many companions may come to ruin, 
but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. """"""" 

No, and you are not being honest with me. This speaks of people like Jonathan to David. It is a juxaposition from many who are false to one who is true. You know that. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/9/2003 3:41 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (16 of 21)  
 
  649.16 in reply to 649.14  
 
Hi Brent,

 

I appreciate your dialogue however your Buddist logic totally breaks down.

 

You are presenting that being humble (according to some definition of humble that only you and maybe some other Buddist know about but still dont agree on what exactly is a humble person in any given situation) and that it is through humility that some spirit visits and gives you life.

 

The Bible is perfectly clear that there is only One Holy Spirit and that there are many deceiving and unholy  unclean spirits.

 

To receive of the one and only Holy Spirit a person any person Must acknowledge Jesus Christ and His resurrection it is then that the Resurrected Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

 

In other words there is only one Name and only one Way people can be saved from spiritual death and receive the Holy Spirit and that is through the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus.

                                                                            

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Spirit).

 

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (other than Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/9/2003 4:08 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (17 of 21)  
 
  649.17 in reply to 649.8  
 
Perhaps you have overanalyized a child's perspective of the covering of the blood of the Lamb with the child's experience.  It seems simple enough to me to understand the complexities of the vision that the child saw in his analogy.  

Indeed we are under the blood, it is the blood covenant of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are under.  When one refers to the being under the blood, it is understood by even the most novice Christian that it is the Lamb's blood.  As you said, you are not under that blood.  And by the way you respond, I believe you.

It is with the childlike simplicity that we ought to know and understand the Lord's ways and word.  Apparently this has escaped your notice.  It has not escaped mine, nor David's in understanding the analogy of this child to the Blood of the Lamb covenant.  

You say that this is misleading and perhaps it is to you, but those of us who understand the complexities of God's word and the simplicity of the child's experience, it doesn't take a mental giant to understand the beauty of this little true story.  It jsut takes a born-again, tongue-speaking Christian to get the truth of this beautiful story. Amen!

Does God have an opinion, you ask?  Of course He does!  It is called WISDOM.  Man's wisdom is his opinion of which we ought not to follow.  But God's Wisdom is what we should be concerned with for His whole Good News is His Wisdom or Opinion in which we learn His ways, and His righteousness.  It is on God's Opinion that I know that I am saved and Know, that is Knowledge, the Sister Spirit to Wisdom, and Understand [the other sister spirit] that I am indeed saved.  Have you not read Proverbs?

Your commentary is a criticism and judgment of a child's experience.  It then becomes a criticism, judgment based upon your assesment of my level of understanding of the word. 

I believe you have me mixed up with your other buddies that don't know what they are talking about.  For I assure you, ordination papers aren't given out to the unlearned or unskilled candidates.  I received my papers with both my pastors' knowledge of my fruits, righteous works, and marked education.  It wasn't easy nor was it short.  It was hard work and it took a long time before I was released to preach the word of God. God ordained me and man inaugurated me at the right time. Amen.   And the word of the Lord says:

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.  From such withdraw yourself.

 

 

         




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Edited 7/9/2003 8:06:37 PM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
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From:  brent (brent696)   7/9/2003 10:31 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     
 
    
 
Dear MF, 
I hope you are not confusing the tone and insenuations in your post with expressing any true Christian demeanor. But if for fun you want to play "my daddy is bigger than your daddy" I can oblige. Watch this! 

>>>>>>>Perhaps you have overanalyized a child's perspective of the covering of the blood of the Lamb with the child's experience.<<<<<<< 

No! I simply called it a child's perspective. I am not a child in the Faith. Since you yourself call it a child's perspective I don't see what your beef is. 

>>>>>>>>It seems simple enough to me to understand the complexities of the vision that the child saw in his analogy.<<<<<<< 

What the child saw, sir, was an illusion. God is not deluding Himself. 

>>>>>>>Indeed we are under the blood, it is the blood covenant of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are under. <<<<<<<<< 

I thought we had to drink it. Is that what you mean by "under" it? How as I supposed to get "drink" from the word "under"? Or it would appear Christ said one thing, you are saying another. 

>>>>>>>When one refers to the being under the blood, it is understood by even the most novice Christian that it is the Lamb's blood. <<<<<<<<< 

"Who's blood" was never in question. 

>>>>>>>>>>As you said, you are not under that blood. And by the way you respond, I believe you.<<<<<<<<< 

Oooohhh! Now am lost, I'll probably be an antichrist after a couple more posts. But why is it then I agree with Christ about drinking and you do not. 

>>>>>>>> It is with the childlike simplicity that we ought to know and understand the Lord's ways and word.<<<<<<<< 

I was thinking more along the lines of humility, meekness, knowledge and wisdom. God is not praised by a bunch of hoopla, running around with big sig.s putting on a show. God is praised by those who KNOW Him. Thus we are to grow in the knowledge and grace of our Lord. 

>>>>>>>> Apparently this has escaped your notice.<<<<<<<< 

Religious pretentiousness has not escaped my notice. But it would appear a core difference between the way I approach God and you seem to is you think of Faith as blind trust, and probably consider it a virtue. But everywhere I find Faith in scripture it is expressed as revealed knowledge, actually to "see" what is unseen to the eye and most don't. Basically being conscious of Spiritual realities including God's nature and Being. If I trust God, it is because I know who and what He is. So I trust because I have Faith (revealed knowledge). 

Some will never come to this point because their blind faith actually becomes a self centered source of righteousness for them. Faith is what one gets when they open their eyes, not when they squeeze them shut and think how good they are at walking blind. 

>>>>>>>It has not escaped mine, nor David's in understanding the analogy of this child to the Blood of the Lamb covenant.<<<<<<<< 

I guess this is the point where you bring David in as if it is two against one. Yet so far as I know David has been more concerned with the fact I sport a proverb attributed to Zen as he finds it incongruous with my Christian representation. Of course he never answered though whether it speaks truth or not. 

But as far as the analogy, let me ask you a question, 

WHAT COLOR WAS THE COAT ???? Was it the color the child percieved for by analogy the child is God? Or was it the color the adult saw? 

The one who saw the true colors of the coat is minimized and the one who was decieved, namely the little boy gets to portray God. So is God decieving Himself in seeing us as righteous? 

>>>>>>>You say that this is misleading and perhaps it is to you, but those of us who understand the complexities of God's word and the simplicity of the child's experience, it doesn't take a mental giant to understand the beauty of this little true story.<<<<<<<< 

Then why did you not notice it cast God as self decieved and the man in the red coat still in a red coat? 

>>>>>>It jsut takes a born-again, tongue-speaking Christian to get the truth of this beautiful story. Amen! <<<<<<<< 

Perhap you are confused then, the fact it is a true story, does not make it a true analogy. 

>>>>>>>Does God have an opinion, you ask? Of course He does! It is called WISDOM. Man's wisdom is his opinion of which we ought not to follow. But God's Wisdom is what we should be concerned with for His whole Good News is His Wisdom or Opinion in which we learn His ways, and His righteousness.<<<<<<<<< 

Then stop referring to Him as decieving Himself. Geez! 

>>>>>> It is on God's Opinion that I know that I am saved and Know, that is Knowledge, the Sister Spirit to Wisdom, and Understand [the other sister spirit] that I am indeed saved. Have you not read Proverbs? <<<<<<<< 

"Sister Spirit", thats a new one, how very new age of you. Wonder how David feels about sister Spirits? 

>>>>>>Your commentary is a criticism and judgment of a child's experience. It then becomes a criticism, judgment based upon your assesment of my level of understanding of the word.<<<<<<<< 

No way man! YOUR commentary is a criticism and judgment of a child's experience. It then becomes a criticism, judgment based upon YOUR assesment of MY level of understanding of the word. 

>>>>>>>I believe you have me mixed up with your other buddies that don't know what they are talking about.<<<<<<<< 

Are you stalking me? 

>>>>>> For I assure you, ordination papers aren't given out to the unlearned or unskilled candidates. <<<<<<<< 

You mean like Jim Jones? I see it happen all the time. 

>>>>>>>>I received my papers with both my pastors' knowledge of my fruits, righteous works, and marked education. It wasn't easy nor was it short. It was hard work and it took a long time before I was released to preach the word of God. God ordained me and man inaugurated me at the right time. Amen.<<<<<<<<< 

""""""""MT 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'"""""""" 

You know MF or whatever your real name is, I dont really mind pride so much, after all it is inherent within human nature for us to be that way, but to disguise it in religiousity, ughh. Either you seek and speak truth or you do not, leave the self glorifications at home. 

-------- 

Now wasn't that fun? You got to put me down, I got to put you down. 

Actually, I am unimpressed. Sorry, you appear to be small, petty and vindictive. Because I spoke of your analogy as inaccurate, you are now on a self defense rampage geared to exposing me as unsaved, crony friends, not simplistic and not complex enough (figure that one out), unskilled, uneducated, unordained, and what ever else you can throw up to discredit. I mean what is it about being on line, is everybody as punky and childish as you but just hiding it in real life? The scary thing is you might even be over 30 and still playing this crud. And even scarier than that you think your God ordained when you have not even swept your own house and cast out the demons. (shaking head in disbelief) 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/10/2003 6:53 am  
To:  brent (brent696)   (19 of 21)  
 
  649.19 in reply to 649.18  
 
Hi Brent,

 

Positionally we Christians are under the Blood Covering of Jesus the wine (Grape) that we drink at communion is a reminder and an instruction of the covering and of the Finished work of the Cross of Jesus.

 

The original post is valid and it is interesting as God has chosen not to see our own individual sins when He looks at us but He sees the Righteousness of Jesus. There is no other way to enter into a relationship with God except into the righteousness of Jesus.

 

2 Corinthians 5:21 For He (Father) hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the Righteousness of God in Him.

 

God Bless you,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
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From:  brent (brent696)   7/10/2003 10:06 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)     
 
    
 
Dear David, 
>>>>>>>Positionally we Christians are under the Blood Covering of Jesus the wine (Grape) that we drink at communion is a reminder and an instruction of the covering and of the Finished work of the Cross of Jesus.<<<<<<<<< 

Positionally the "Life" that was in the blood now flows in my own viens, so to speak. At communion one does not pour the wine over their head but rather they drink it. "under" is simply not a biblical understanding, it is used by those who do not truly understand the infusion of the Spirit. 

The blood is symbolic of the "Life Being" of Christ, namely that He is begotten of the Holy Spirit and it is the Holy Spirit which is the "Life" within Christ. It speaks of God's Being that is IN Christ. 

If you wish to be biblically accurate then one says "I am in Christ and Christ is in me" or "born of the Spirit of God". There are deep mysteries (Spiritual realities) behind these words and the necessity for this but one can never come to such deep revelations (Faith) if they insist on false analogies. There are inherent difficulties and differences between Eternal Being that is wholy God and contingent being that concerns Creatures and their Creation. 

God possesses certain attributes of Being that are absolute. Just as He separated Christ (His Seed) from Himself so that IN Christ these differences could be reconciled for the Father cannot touch sin. 

>>>>>>>The original post is valid and it is interesting as God has chosen not to see our own individual sins when He looks at us but He sees the Righteousness of Jesus. There is no other way to enter into a relationship with God except into the righteousness of Jesus.<<<<<<< 

It may be valid for a child's understanding but I would like to think we have a little deeper knowledge of God and His Grace. You have used the word "chosen" so now I understand you did not understand me at all in previous posts. I will attempt a deeper look but will probably be attack so some can defend their ignorance, that is ussually the case. 

God's Being is the one true Reality, it is the sum and substance of eternity itself and there is no other, and so it is said """MK 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."""""" 

There is no other Being which is eternal in nature. And there is no division in the eternal nature. 

Mankind on the other hand, is an Identity in essense. Time and space, as effects of the Creation produce "locality". Once there is "locality", then self awareness is possible for us and souls are created. Because there is a here and a now, so can I know myself. But this here and now is dependent upon time and space and time and space dependent upon Creation. 

When God says "I AM" He encompassed the whole of eternity, everything which is truly real and abiding. Mankind's identity and self awareness are dependent upon a vacuum. The "I am" of man exists solely by division and the vacuum left between. So the Being of God is One and abiding, the being of man is empty and temporal. 

God is the REAL, man is a "reflection", merely an "image" of the one true I AM. In God is "Life", in man is "Death". You might think you exist but you do not exist the same way as does God. 

Now what is eternal is eternal, it can neither be subtracted from not added to but is constant, knowing no time or space. Simplistically there is no future to Spirit (Eternal Being) by which something "new" may come about. It is already complete. Man exists in a different context of being, we are like images upon the waves of the Creative waters, waters which are defined as empty and void. 

Here is a true analogy, think of God as hovering over the waters, in creating does he stir the waters and each wave top then can bear a reflection of his I AM, but where He is true Being as the sky, the images are substancially water. If He were to cease from stirring the waters the waters would calm and God would see only Himself as One. We would no longer exist. What God has to do is to place His own Life Being within each image so it is made of both water and sky. 

As natural beings we are Creations, we are not made of the stuff "Life" God is. We have been born from the "Waters" of the Creation but we shall not enter the eternal realm until we are born of the substance of Eternity (God) itself. Thus God is in all and through all and remains a unified whole, and at the same time is multiplying in that He is ever expanding like the loafs and the fish. 

All men have "relationship" with God. The natural man is a "Creation", a "Creature", existing in the context or the finite. Brought forth in the beginning of Creation and existing until its final day of disolution. In order for man to transcend his created state he must be born of the Spirit. Once Eternity has entered man man can enter eternity, to enter the Kingdom the Kingdom must first enter us for the Kingdom is God's Being and all who are part and parcel of it. Christ is the father's Seed who brings this True Being, this True LIFE into the Creation, then to infuse it (Himself) into us making us part and parcel of Him (His Body). He is IN us, so are we IN Him. 

""""""""2 Corinthians 5:21 For He (Father) hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the Righteousness of God in Him."""""""" 

I see no "under" in this verse. What I see is the Father, sending forth His Seed, then in that Seed on the cross righteous Being and sinful Being being reconciled. That Holy soul of eternal Beingness was PIERCED by sin and by that piercing we are made Holy. His LIFE BEING (in the blood) flowing out so that the soul who drinks this Being, recieves the LIFE which is from God, even God Himself. Paul understood this indwelling, hence he says "IN" not "under" for they do not mean the same thing. 

Now heres the crux of the matter, God does not arbitrarily (chosen) to SEE us as righteous. Such a statement accuses God of sin as if God were calling something sinful righteous. Like the boy calling what was in reality red white. God actually makes us white, he goes out there, takes the coat, washes it in the blood, and the coat itself turns white, then puts it back on us. Then he calls us righteous because we are, because His own Being in the form of His Son is IN us as we are IN Him. 

We begin in the natural and Creatures, as Creations (born of water) and assuming we are born of the Spirit we become God's own Children, sharing in His own blood. So when you take communion, you should DRINK. 

brent



Only when you can be extremely pliable and soft can you be extremely hard and strong. 
- Zen proverb 
The Blood (83 views) Subscribe   
   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/10/2003 3:05 pm  
To:  brent (brent696)   (21 of 21)  
 
  649.21 in reply to 649.20  
 
Hi Brent,

 

I really appreciate your posting into these matters.

 

1. I think that a childs view in understanding God as He has currently revealed Himself to us IS the Appropriate view.

 

Being separated from God when we receive His Spirit we become Children of God it is only after we physically die and receive our new Spiritual Body in Heaven in the perceivable presence of God that we become Sons of God and as Sons greater understanding and greater responsibility.

 

It is the ERROR of every Cult to remove the Simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus and to make it into a deep and complex matter that only the few can understand.

 

The Spirit that we receive is a seal a partial that keeps us until we die therefore we physically drink the wine (Grape) so commemorate and to acknowledge and for instruction into what has happened to the Christian.

 

Im still reading your post and enjoy it very much.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
 
